Talk:Tomb of the Unknown Soldier (Arlington National Cemetery)

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Requested move 13 November 2017

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Moved to Tomb of the Unknown Soldier (Arlington) — Amakuru (talk) 10:44, 22 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Tomb of the Unknowns → Tomb of the Unknowns (United States) – The name does not uniquely identify U.S. monument 141.131.2.3 (talk) 16:36, 13 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The title "Tomb of the Unknowns" is not an official title of the U.S. monument and there are various monuments around the world that are variously referred to as Tomb of the Unknowns, Tomb of the Unknown Soldier, Tomb of the Unknown Warrior, etc. Implying that this title somehow uniquely identifies the U.S. monument or that the U.S. monument is somehow more significant than the others IMHO is rather conceited. I think making the specific locale clear in the article title is appropriate.

There already exists a link Tomb of the Unknowns (United States) so the content here can just be moved there. Then the this article can become a link to Tomb of the Unknown Soldier which is a generic article for all of the momuments around the world.

-- MC 141.131.2.3 (talk) 16:36, 13 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Definitely needs a move, as "Tomb of the Unknown Soldier" is far more in use and official than "Tomb of the Unknowns" when referring to this specific site. move to Tomb of the Unknown Soldier (Arlington) as more specific, as there are other unknown soldier tombs within the US. Several similar sites use city identification, and that's appropriate for a large country like the US. Prevents future conflicts for the name. -- Netoholic @ 17:37, 13 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
move to Tomb of the Unknown Soldier (Arlington) as per more reliable third party sources In ictu oculi (talk) 19:51, 13 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Alternate move to Tomb of the Unknown Soldier (Arlington); and then repoint the current title to Tomb of the Unknown Soldier -- 70.51.45.76 (talk) 04:13, 15 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
SIRIS (the Smithsonian) has Tomb of the Unknown Soldier so Move to Tomb of the Unknown Soldier (Arlington). Carptrash (talk) 15:58, 15 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. No evidence that the name "Tomb of the Unknowns" is common for any other monument besides this one, so disambiguation is unnecessary. The list of tombs is already linked in a hat note.--Cúchullain ^t/c 16:16, 20 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment - I'll just state an opinion. This strikes me as a dubious argument because

The name Tomb of the Unknowns is hardly common usage (I had not heard of it until I saw this article). The Arlington monument is virtually universally known as the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier.
The names Tomb of the Unknowns and Tomb of the Unknown Soldier are obviously extremely similar. Arguing that these two slightly different variants could not be very easily confused I do not think makes much sense. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.131.2.3 (talk) 15:53, 21 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The idea that "Tomb of the Unknowns" is... unknown is false on its face.[1][2] The two phrases are also sufficiently different per WP:SMALLDETAILS - one includes an entire additional word. It may be the case that "Tomb of the Unknown Soldier" is more commonly used, but "Tomb of the Unknowns" is well established enough to serve as WP:NATURALDISAMBIGUATION. It's also worth pointing out that the Tomb of the Unknowns includes several additional burials beyond the original "Tomb of the Unknown Soldier" from WWI.--Cúchullain ^t/c 16:28, 21 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Comment It appears that Canada officially refers to their unknown soldier site as Tomb of the Unknown Soldier. By in large, most countries do not specifically refer to their physical sites as Tomb of the Unknown Soldier. I will also note that within the United States: Tomb of the Unknown Revolutionary War Soldier, Tomb of the Unknown Soldier of the American Revolution, Civil War Unknowns Monument, Tomb of the Unknown Confederate Soldier these locations are not officially called: Tomb of the Unknown Soldier. -Signaleer (talk) 13:27, 21 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Move to Tomb of the Unknown Soldier (Arlington). The current name seems to be both uncommon and unofficial, not quite a Wikipedia invention but no more suitable than that as an article title. I note that there's a history at that name which is not significant in terms of copyleft licensing, but worth noting the reverted cut-and-paste move 17:20, 19 November 2017 2605:6000:ec16:c000:cdde:a37a:f23b:4b85 (talk | block) . . (42,305 bytes) (+42,271) . . (Article move to new name, per consensus). I have no idea where that claimed consensus is documented, and am skeptical, but I've posted a heads-up to the IP concerned. Andrewa (talk) 16:33, 21 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
- It appears that the claimed consensus was this out of process close of this very RM, which was subsequently reverted along with the cut-and-paste move. I missed that somehow. No change of !vote. Andrewa (talk) 09:08, 22 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Selecting the Unknown

This question was raised in a discussion online, and I didn't have a solid answer. Do we know how the authorities are certain the Unknown was indeed an American? I assume they selected someone whose location or equipment showed him as undeniably American, but I don't know, and a cursory search hasn't found anything. Perhaps some Wikipedian who's better-read on the subject than I can add that?

*Septegram*Talk*Contributions* 15:40, 28 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Septegram:The answer is in Robert Poole's book, On Hallowed Ground: The Story of Arlington National Cemetery (referenced above). I can't get you the exact page number tonight, but I'll try over the course of the next few days. Bob305 (talk) 21:31, 28 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks; I think it would be great information to have in the article.

*Septegram*Talk*Contributions* 14:41, 29 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Septegram:Pages 149–152 detail the selection of the body. There were unknown American dead in Aisne-Marne, Meuse-Argonne, Somme, and St. Mihiel. One unkown body was selected from each, and then through several "shufflings" of the caskets, one was selected. The remaining 3 were shuffled again and returned to Meuse-Argonne for burial. To specifically answer your question, page 149 indicates that "the War Department ... issu[ed] orders for the Quartermaster Corps to find an unknown solider [sic] who was a combat fatality, buried in France, positively known to be American". The footnote to the overall process indicates Poole took his information from a memo in NARA files written to the Army chief of staff. Bob305 (talk) 20:50, 29 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Selecting the Unknown - section The Vietnam Unknown

Any information as to how the remains were selected and from where they were obtained? It is conspiciously absent from that section unlike those from WWI, WWII and Korea.Cloptonson (talk) 17:08, 24 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 27 March 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. Although opponents raised sound points about WP:CONCISION and potential WP:OVERPRECISION, the discussion as a whole appears to have reached a consensus that the proposed title's increased WP:PRECISION is meaningful rather than unnecessary, and that the improvement in clarity would be sufficient to outweigh the concerns. (closed by non-admin page mover) ModernDayTrilobite (talk • contribs) 14:27, 8 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Tomb of the Unknown Soldier (Arlington) → Tomb of the Unknown Soldier (Arlington National Cemetery) – The Tomb of the Unknown Soldier is a memorial within Arlington National Cemetery, not a distinct location in Arlington County, Virginia. The disambiguation should refer to the specific and very well known cemetery complex of which the tomb is a part, not the wider census-designated place. This is like disambiguating with West Wing (Washington, D.C.) rather than West Wing (White House). Or Matterhorn (Anaheim) rather than Matterhorn (Disneyland). "Arlington" is also itself ambiguous, most notably between Arlington, Texas and Arlington, Virginia. Our Arlington, Virginia article even then redirects to Arlington County, Virginia. Muddled and ambiguous. PK-WIKI (talk) 09:26, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support per nomination. This tomb is directly tied to the cemetery by historical significance and included sites and features. Randy Kryn (talk) 14:01, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Comment the cemetery is fairly commonly referred to as just "Arlington" as well so it's possible that was the intention of the title. I think having the more specific disambiguator is fine, however, given the overlap with other Arlingtons, although the least specific disambiguator possible is normally preferable and based on the other tombs in Category:Tombs of Unknown Soldiers Tomb of the Unknown Soldier (Arlington, Virginia) may be a better choice. Skynxnex (talk) 17:39, 3 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support per nomination. Note that I've restored the previous move discussion from the archive. Tomb of the Unknowns remains a redirect to this article, and some 179 articles still link to the previous title. I think it's reasonable to keep this as a primary redirect similar to the also ambiguous The Unknown Warrior which is primary for the UK. However, per the Ngram, this term only came into common usage in the 1950s after a WWII soldier was added, and has never been close to being the most commonly-used term. Most members of Category:Tombs of Unknown Soldiers use disambiguation by country, but Tomb of the Unknown Soldier#United States shows how that's not practical, or by major (capital) city, but (Washington) isn't practical because, while the tomb is located in the Washington metro area, it is not in Washington, D.C. proper. – wbm1058 (talk) 11:25, 4 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. The disambiguator only needs to be sufficiently precise to disambiguate against other similar articles, it is not part of the title itself. As such, "Arlington" is plenty long enough, as there aren't any other Tombs of the Unknown Soldier in any other Arlingtons on the planet. Anyone searching for this article will immediately WP:RECOGNIZE it when they see the word "Arlington" in the title, and further disambiguation is both clunky and entirely unnecessary. — Amakuru (talk) 15:31, 4 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose per Amakuru and WP:CONCISE. "Arlington" is the most obvious and concise way to disambiguate it, whether one means the cemetery or county. --

Jfhutson (talk) 18:36, 4 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support, to avoid confusion. Readers may well not know that Arlington National Cemetery is located in Arlington, Virginia. BD2412 T 18:53, 10 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support, being in the Arlington National Cemetery is much more important than the fact that it is in Arlington, Virginia. While people colloquially refer to the cemetery as "Arlington," that shouldn't be used in official names of Wikipedia articles. AnandaBliss (talk) 14:47, 30 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.